Curse

Clarissa F · Nov 29, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

A "what if".....

Imagine if all skills and primaries were left as they were when the games started. All Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall skills were left as they were created. Would we really have a worse game? Or would it have, maybe, forced people, in pve and especially in pvp, to use ingenuity and experimentation to create combinations and counters using the skills available?

Imagine the fun of the original steamroller that was MM? The sheer domination of pvp Mesmers? The crazy invulnerability of 55's? The infinite buff of the paragon? Imagine how better it would have been when people created counters based on the skills available, instead of crying loud enough for Anet to adjust their world to their fit? Would it have really been that bad?

Rathcail · Nov 29, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Change makes the game less boring at least. But I'm just a PvE'r and I guess you have pointed this thread more towards the PvP'ing folk.

Tyla · Nov 29, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

It would not go well.
the skill balances needed(well....AND unneeded) have took place.

gasmaskman · Nov 29, 2007, 12:23 AM // 00:23

No, because there'd be too much effort trying to counter one build, so you have a game of R/P/S rather than skill.

Vinraith · Nov 29, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

It'd be a flat out disaster for PvP, and terribly boring for PvE. PvE would be down to about 5 builds at this point, and you'd be a fool to use anything else. In a fixed system it's not that hard to find the optimal configuration. Changing things is all that keeps the game fresh.

xReLx · Nov 29, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

It'd be a flat out disaster for PvP, and terribly boring for PvE. PvE would be down to about 5 builds at this point, and you'd be a fool to use anything else. In a fixed system it's not that hard to find the optimal configuration. Changing things is all that keeps the game fresh.

Yep.

12chars -_-

Savio · Nov 29, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasmaskman

No, because there'd be too much effort trying to counter one build, so you have a game of R/P/S rather than skill.

No, you'd have a game of rock or paper. Unfortunately some players actually enjoy games with that level of depth.

Sha Noran · Nov 29, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasmaskman

No, because there'd be too much effort trying to counter one build, so you have a game of R/P/S rather than skill.

No, you'd have a game of rock or paper.

Oh man, that so perfectly summed up why this is a horrible idea that there's little else to say.

When the game is balanced, it's Rock/Paper/Scissors, except that sometimes Paper can really kick some ass and kill Scissors. The game you describe, i.e. one without at least ATTEMPTED balance, is a stale and frustrating environment that no one would really care for in the long run.

bhavv · Nov 29, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

The only thing wrong with necros was gaining energy from spirits. How long did that take to fix? The only thing wrong with rit spike was that Anet overbuffed channeling in the first place. The only thing wrong with paragons was Incoming and Energizing Finale, so why did all the motivation skills get nerfed? Why did they have to nerf LoD?

Anet skill balancing is a lame funny joke.

Shiishii Momo · Nov 29, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

I don't know, I think the OP postulates an interesting idea (not that I would want to see it happen). What he says is can you imagine that we would have had builds designed to counter what has been looked at in the past as overpowered skills or abilities. Left to our own devices, would a 'natural' balance have occoured rather than the forced balance by A-Net. I am not naive enough to gaming or GW in general to think that they were able to think of every possible scenario when originally designing skills and classes, but wouldn't Newtons Law apply here? For every action there is an opposite but equal re-action? Would there truely be no build possible to combat a warrior that could buff his armor level up to 160 or 180? Or a necro with 20 minnions following him around? I think that we do not give ourselves enough credit with the level of ingenuity we have, and have simply chosen to take the easy route in a few (not all) cases by demanding change. Just my thoughts.

Savio · Nov 29, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiishii Momo

What he says is can you imagine that we would have had builds designed to counter what has been looked at in the past as overpowered skills or abilities.

The thing inherently wrong with this statement, as well as many other statements against game balance, is that balanced does not mean counterable. If you cannot understand that, you shouldn't be commenting on game balancing.

Shiishii Momo · Nov 29, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The thing inherently wrong with this statement, as well as many other statements against game balance, is that balanced does not mean counterable. If you cannot understand that, you shouldn't be commenting on game balancing.

Savio, I never said I was against balance, in fact quite the opposite. Can you explain to me what balanced means if it does not mean that one class does not have an advantage over another class by having a skill or natural ability that cannot be countered by every or any other? I'm not being snide or sarcastic, I am just curious as to what your interpretation of balanced is, as I generally play PvE and you probably have a more balanced insight to it.

Sha Noran · Nov 29, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The only thing wrong with paragons was Incoming and Energizing Finale, so why did all the motivation skills get nerfed?

Lol, statements like that make Guru worth reading.

Sorry OP, but I'm not really interested in playing:

-Ranger spirit spam (unlimited spirits)
-66% IAS W/R with IWAY and Tiger's Fury
-dual Orders
-Protective Bond
-W/E's with 5e Gale and +43 damage Eviscerate and .25 second Critical Chop
-Blackout that can be kept up forever
-Ether Renewal smiters
-Air of Enchantment smiters
-Aura of Displacement that has no maximum range
-Recall with no maximum range
-Ritualist spirit spam (unlimited spirits+Ritual Lord+Boon of Creation=nightmare mode)
-Grenth Dervs as enchant ripping God mode
-Melandru Dervs with +200 maximum health on top of immunity to conditions
-Paragons stacking armor
-Rampage As One Thumpers without pets
-5e Blinding Surge
-untargeted Jagged Bones+un-nerfed Soul Reaping
-any of the other retardedly broken things that ANet released without thinking about the consequences/careful bug checking

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

The only problems would be

the nightfall skills.
And ritualists.

Everything else be cool.

oh and mother RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Iway lets not go back there..

Protective bond would come back to farming
I think Ranger spirit spam could probably come back though with todays skills.

1 up and 2 down · Nov 29, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Go go Iway!!11!1

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

lol SP sin would probably be weaker.

Assassin's started out pretty weak in Factions (factions skills in general started pretty weak...cept for spiritway)

Shadow of haste would be cool again.
Protective bond farming be nice...but protective bond pvp would suck.

The only thing that's really making me think cool!

Wastrels collapse name changed to Shameful Waste (bloody accurate)
1337 Minions at once.

unienaule · Nov 29, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

It doesn't mean one class doesn't have an advantage over another. It means one class doesn't have an advantage over ALL of them.

ensoriki · Nov 29, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

OH found a new bitch!

Ether prodigy,renewal,boon Whatever...they all return =P

gasmaskman · Nov 29, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

When the game is balanced, it's Rock/Paper/Scissors, except that sometimes Paper can really kick some ass and kill Scissors. The game you describe, i.e. one without at least ATTEMPTED balance, is a stale and frustrating environment that no one would really care for in the long run.

When a game is balanced, Rock can beat Paper and Paper can beat Scissors, because it's about skill, not about what you choose to do (RPS, or in GW's case, what build to run).

Chthon · Nov 29, 2007, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

A "what if".....

Imagine if all skills and primaries were left as they were when the games started. All Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall skills were left as they were created. Would we really have a worse game? Or would it have, maybe, forced people, in pve and especially in pvp, to use ingenuity and experimentation to create combinations and counters using the skills available?

Imagine the fun of the original steamroller that was MM? The sheer domination of pvp Mesmers? The crazy invulnerability of 55's? The infinite buff of the paragon? Imagine how better it would have been when people created counters based on the skills available, instead of crying loud enough for Anet to adjust their world to their fit? Would it have really been that bad?

From a PvE standpoint, I think the game would be a lot more fun without so many skills nerfed to dust. Not to mention my poor necromancer.

PvPer's would probably whine. And maybe even rightly so.

And we all know which customers a-net values more....